Discussing Issues in Female Led Relationships
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I see discipline as being able to control yourself or a motivation to control yourself where punishment is reinforcement of power and motivation not to do something (or if he likes pain) motivation to do it
Discipline keeps a man on track; punishment is used for the male who is off track. Discipline can be enjoyable and erotic to the male and can be regularly applied. Punishment is applied when needed and should not pleasurable to the man - instead painful to immediately correct behaviors.
GeneWn GeneWn you are right on target. Punishment is required when He has not learned the lesson(s)of discipline. Some men find punishment highly erotic but a man must be brought past that point. As you stated it is the pain that immediately and solidly corrects the behavior. Bravo regarding your comment.
I agree gene...this is very close to what my personal definition of the difference between the two.
I feel compelled to point out that punishment is the least effective method of behavior modification. According to B.F. Skinner "punishment changes behavior only temporarily and presents many detrimental side effects" Positive Reenforcement is a much better (and proven) means to change behavior. Having said that, punishment may indeed make the authority feel better. :-)
Undulate202 yes I agree, punishment may be erotic but it is not really the best way to get change. I believe there is negative punishment, negative reinforcement, positive reinforcement, and positive punishment in the model while negative punishment and positive punishment in general works at some level, the best is positive reinforcement and positive punishment might actually be a negative reinforcement (as in he wants it). Psy 101. Whatever happened to self-control and being motivated to please our partner? There seems to be a great debate, on the one side are the voices (mostly men saying punishment reinforces her power) which I agree with; and the voices saying punishment really does not show any power at all because he has to volunteer anyway; which I agree with. The guys ideas of women and power is really key but where are the women in this debate.
Undulate202 In defence of men wanting punishment, positive punishment is an effective method for training but NOT living. I believe men need self control and rules to follow then what ever "correction" is needed to help them thrive. Where more often punishment goes too far. Most men don't need external control it is just a fetish.
Sometimes others do not understand what punishment is and therefore misunderstand what it can do when applied properly. I would suggest to anyone who does not believe punishment is effect that they have not found the proper punishment. In my case the thing I absolutely hate the most and fear as well is being ignored. Beating me, torturing me with hot irons may get a temporary result but being ignore by my
Undulate202 Personally I enjoy punishing men, it is not erotic to me but feels like I have the power, so regardless of the benefit or lack there of, punishment works to reinforce who I am. I do think if I go as far as many men want it would change me as a person so I set my own limits and never break them.
It would be nice if everyone behaved appropriately for their partners satisfaction, but the reality is that we are all different. Each couple has to find what works for them, and for some, punishment is a viable option. Personally, I'd rather never punish. Because if I do so, it means I'm really unhappy with him and that is not a good place for me to be in. If he 'needs' a spanking, then he should be able to ask for one without having to act out. I believe it all comes down to communication and what works best to create a healthy relationship for each couple.
QueenBee-SheMakesTheRules Wow that is very well spoken
[the fact that she is not content is the most effectif of punishmentsb]QueenBee-SheMakesTheRules
I agree with QueenBee. When I discipline/spank my husband I see nothing but good results for both of us. I get to take him down notch and enjoy his wriggling and crying out as I spank. It's a stress reliever. I feel a power rush when I make my feelings felt. Over all I love the sense of control I have over him during discipline sessions. As for him, he has related he feels ashamed and humbled having to be spanked like a child. Also, he's truly ashamed for his bad behaviors or attitude. "That's most important." Further, he relates his sore bottom and additional punishments are constant reminder to behave. Best of all he's much more attentive to my needs and affectionate afterwards.
MS Becky I would be more attentive to my wife needs if she would only punish me as you described. any ideas of how to bring her round to this way of thinking many thanks guest
MS Becky i agree very much, for us my wife love how it is a stress reliever for her and me, with me when i am punished it is because i upset her with my bad behaviors and attitude, so when it is over i know that she has forgive me and we can go on, i know it is something that i need,
For me, FLA is a better term as it incorporate the word Love which is a huge differentiator for the success or failure of a relationship. In an FLR, if love underlies the dynamic than everything that follows will flow easily. When I hear discipline, i agree with those who peg it to a chronic maintenance of a power exchanged dynamic. It may or may not be linked to an event but more towards just remembering who is leading and who is following. THe implication is that there has been a relationship agreement with the establishment of this dynamic. As for punishment, it implies to me an event that contravenes the agreed to rules and exists as the remedy to prevent a reoccurrence. To that end, it needs to push beyond discipline in terms of intensity and should not be enjoyable.
IMO, the difference between discipline and punishment is clear. Discipline is instructional and correction-oriented. There is a lesson to be learned, its importance emphasized. Discipline gets his attention, draws him directly into the circumstance and leaves no wiggle room to ever tell me he didn't understand or "forgot". Punishment is punitive. Words and actions may be flavored with anger, revenge, spite -- seeking retribution. I'm with QueenBee in that I don't like to be so displeased that punishment is indicated. Much preferred is paying attention to begin with and accepting correction/discipline as a preventative measure.
you must punish to establish authority,,There must be a real transgression.men are not focused & will disobey.I am very dominant, but keep it in control.he loves me with a burning hot passion but he also fears me,,I am much stronger than the average woman,,I have been suprised how much a man likes loving female authority..I am very feminine,but STRONG & controlling to ensure obedience,my punishment is harsh,but followed by positive guidance & love.ALL MEN NEED DISCIPLINE.MIRRO MIRROR ON THE WALL,I,M A BLOND FOX, THEREFOR, MAKE THEM BEG, MAKE THEM CRAWL....
Ladyjolynn I disagree, I think most men will obey willingly although I love the rhyme. It is because they want FLR.
Ladyjolynn Punishment isn't required to establish authority, but rituals help. The rituals can be similar to those in the article on retraining, such as having him kneel naked and kiss your feet. Punishment-type activities are also appropriate rituals, but they aren't really punishment for transgressions (for example, so-called "maintenance spankings"). Such activities reinforce your authority and encourage his proper behavior by his knowing that the activities will occur regularly and if you are displeased they will be more intense and will actually be used as punishment.
Nerd I disagree that "maintenance spankings" reinforce authority, it likely reinforces a fantasy. Think it over, does he have to "volunteer? It is part of his fantasy to begin with? The kind of things I feel reinforce authority are the same as saying "no" or "yes", thus granting permission, then acting reinforces it by holding the purse strings. Teaching new habits reinforces authority. Administering resources such as giving an allowance reinforces authority. Holding the 5 so called "food groups" exercises authority. Exercising authority reinforces authority, the rest is made-up stuff.
Nerd I definitely see how the act of submitting to the spanking is more important that the act of the spanking itself.
well if there is a match dominance could not be established with punishment. If the male subject has discipline and believe in his Lady he will do anything to plese and serve Her and the punsihment would be a nice addition to the relationship: pleasure to the female for enjoying to punish and the mal subject to please his Lady and having Her enjoy the punishment
Alexander What do you think? is punishment real or do you need to volunteer for it? That means it is just attention getting. The only punishment that works is one you don't want. Men are bigger than women.
Finding your site interesting. My wife and I moved into what I can now call a FLR. When I discovered this topic, I wanted to add that with her punishment has been associated with bad "violations". She sees no need to reinforce the power aspects of the relationship, nor do I give her any reasons to. Pain has been involved in the past for serious things (for example, lying), but things like restrictions imposed on television, or general freedom to pursue interests work just as well.
If my focus is on her and my total desire is to please and I fail, then the self disappointment would be hard to deal with. It would indicate that my failure to not support and nurture our relationship resulted in upsetting my partner and cause her to lose faith in me. Under these circumstances, I would need for her to show her disapproval in anyway she chooses. It would be too difficult to not have a release from my guilty conscious. And it would be very hard to pick back up until it was felt that the situation was rectifiable and forgiven. To go unpunished would be the worse punishment I can think of.....but that is just me. Others have made valid points with their solutions for transgressions that work for them that I find no argument with.
Compliantguy You are way off child. First, no one has to give "total desire is to please", just a good effort will do. Second, no one but no one should be punished for failure. That is the time to learn from your mistakes and do a better job. The only failure that is permanent is that one that you don't try harder next time. Third, your guilt is no reason for her to react at all. What you need to see yourself through her eyes, she loves you and making mistakes is part of growing. Punishment is for wilful disobedience and lessons that cannot be taught any other way.
I fully agree with You Susan!
Discpline should be in a man . When in a FLR the female should set standard and the man needs to live up to it...punishment can be in many kinds...like no eating etc etc... I feel for female supremacy in this world! It would be a better place!
Having quite a few FLR behind me I nly can say that my girl-friends made clear rules with clear consequences. All of them were insinsting on corporal punishment after a system of points and they were executing their corporal punishments. I was not punished for anything but for quite a lot of reasons. I never met a dominat girl or lady in a FLR who was thinking different. They all told me, if they can not punish as they like they do not see any sense why they should be the leading part. Even my step-mother when I was married was extremely backing my former wife this way.
My wife and I always had a troubled marriage...seperating twice in 14 years. The last time we got back together when I suggested a FLR and she agreed. That was the best thing that ever happened! We laid out a simple set of rules based on respect and her leadership. Yes...spanking was one of the remedies when I broke one of the rules. I really try to keep them...it was harder at the first as I was trying to break a lifetime of habits. She made the spankings some of the worst experiences of my life. It really helped me control myself when I KNEW what was coming. That has been several years ago. I still get a rare spanking when I revert back to old habits, but it is less and less as new habits have been formed. Our marriage is great! She loves me and I love her...we are very happy. We owe it all to a sensible FLR and supportive discipline/punishment.
What I have read here confirms that FLRs have one goal in mind. That is to gain control in a way that enslaves the male. It has nothing to do with improving the bond between them. Frankly, men who submit to being punished, as described, are weak and certainly are not lovers, or sound examples for children to look upward to. True love isn't about who's on top, in control over the other, nor is it a means in which one gains power over the other or the authority to abuse / humiliate the other.
Free man Just because one person in a discussion talks up control, punishment or discipline, does not means anything like what you said about FLR, you are uninformed sir and need to read more about how unequal relationships work. BTW, level 4 and beyond does approach slavery but not level 1-3, sorry, you are just not right.
FLR implies that a woman is making the decisions. If a man begins to question this authority or have doubts, he needs to be taken in hand and decide what he really wants. If he still wants to have the relationship, and it is important to him; the Female needs to reinforce his choice by lessening his tendency to question authority. This can be accomplished through progressive ritual and discipline. If this is truly his choice to be led, he will ask for this discipline, as he knows he needs to be controlled and guided. When he steps outside of the established parameters laid down by his Woman and agreed to by him--then punishment is necessary. This punishment can take the form of progressive discipline intensified. Never the less, if the authority is questioned or challenged, it must be addressed in an overt way.
I think you are absolutely correct...moreover, this is the way it must be if this type of relationship is to evolve and prosper. It seems like on this site women are wanting to take control and the men here are offering their submission. Once the level is established, there is nothing further to talk about so to speak....but ladies, you are NOW the control force...so take the male, teach him what you want and demand the obedience you seek.
As a true submissive male...I expect I will have to live by your rules and you will enforce them. Obedience should be less difficult than punishment always. I want to seek your favor by being submissive to you and learning to please you. I think there are a lot of women who are less than honest in this because often they tend to only exercise the control the male allows and that is backward. If you want your male naked in chastity for example, don't pussyfoot and ask....just demand it. This control is what you want AND what he wants.
Cbotrader I think you are fooling yourself into thinking you are a submissive male, I get the impression you are teaching women how to lead and what to do to please you and get you to obey, the notion of punishment for you is out of the question, what you need to do is learn how women feel about this topic, change your language and you will change your life. One of the biggest complaints women have about FLR is men are off the chart kinky and think somehow that is what women want. Relationships take mates, partners who contribute and putting a woman in the position to cater to your kinks is awkward at best.
If you're the woman in a FLR and your man likes being spanked, don't spank him as a punishment. I read an article a while back, which is what got me interested in FLR. Well about 5 years ago I started dating this woman, we ended up being together a couple of years, and just a few months into it I was madly in love with her, and was naturally submissive towards her. There was no training or anything I don't think, but I had the desire to please her so most of the time I tried. Anyways back to the article, it made so much sense it talked about orgasm denial, and why it's important I'm not one of these men who gets turned on thinking about getting spanked, and not being allowed to get off, spanking seems like it'd be embarrassing, and possibly painful, and well getting off is fun. But when the lady who wrote the article explained it, it made perfect sense, and I would be willing to deal with those things as my lady saw fit. The orgasm denial is so you can keep your man aroused easily and wanting you, which makes him want to make you happy, because he wants you to make him happy, so the article says keep your man turned on for a week running around in skimpy outfits, touching him, but not letting him get off, and he will be all about you, and I know that would work because it happens to me if I'm talking to a lady and we get eachother all hot and bothered I want nothing more than to please her, but once I get off that feeling kinda disappears. As for the punishment thing of course that works, look how it works for children, animals, and anything else you train by punishment. Now spanking seems not to be a very useful punishment for men willing to be in these relationships because that seems to be what they want. A punishment can be many things though find something your husband or bf doesn't like. I think a spanking would work for me, because it doesn't turn me on at all, it would be embarrassing, and I'm not into pain at all. I think the orgasm denial would be the thing to get me started in the right direction learning how my lady wants me to be, but eventually she would let me have release, and if because of that release I lost sight of the goal, and my behavior didn't live up to her expectations, I would imagine having to let her spank me, and when I say spank I mean not like the fun kind, I'm talking about how pricipals used to light your butt up in school. I think the first time a woman spanks her man as punishment it should be overly severe. If he's not squirming and begging you to stop do it harder, and do it slowly so the pain has time to set in before you're finished paddling, and make sure you explain to him while you're spanking him why it is that you're doing it, and how he can avoid it in the future. Ok all that being said, the reason I would like to be trained is because a couple reasons. 1 I'm a horrible decision maker, and would be much better off if someone would just make me do better stuff. 2 If someone was controlling my decisions and actions, and it was making my life better, it would only be fair they also make their life better. 3 I honestly feel that women are superior, and it's not just some fetish thing, but like my mom, and I totally don't get turned on by my mom... my mom is so awesome, so strong, always supported the family, and took care of things at home, my dad was always a disappointment. My sister is another awesome woman, both are very intelligent by the way, she is a stay at home wife now, but she does ALOT 4 kids various school functions, sports, and whatnot, plus pays all the bills and takes care of EVERYTHING including meals. Anyways just saying that I feel women are superior, that's why I'm quick to hold a door open, or offer up my seat, the same as I would for an older person, it's not because society says treat women like that, because hey let's face it women aren't the soft little daisies we once believed they were, but because I want to show my respect. I will openly admit I don't feel that every woman on this planet is superior to me or any other particular man, but in general women are just stronger, wiser, and all around better people.
Hello FLR women. I am brand new to all of this. My boyfriend has introduced me to this world and we are great together. For him to have a full relationship FLR is a must. Surprisingly, I am finding that I really enjoy all of the kinky stuff, the male chastity, and the pleasure on demand, not to mention it is the first time in my life a man has done dishes! That being said he also has told me that punishment and discipline is an integral part, this is where I really need some advise. I am a kind, loving person who has never hit anyone in my life. He says I need to smack him with a belt or restrain him in a corner for a duration of time. Both of these sound horrible to me. The beating part I feel like I will cry if I do it and feel incredibly guilty for hurting him. The tie him in up in a corner also gives me similar feelings. I really want him to be fulfilled and the relationship to work and am hoping that someone who is experienced in all of this can help. Thank you!
New Girl T I like your attitude, he is a lucky guy.
MotleyfooolThank you for the reply:), but I am hoping for some advice on to handle this aspect of the sub/dom relationship.
New Girl T Try forced exercise instead - he is playing you, trying to lead you to do something you don't want. Make him earn your leadership by obeying you in simple things. Remind him when he does not obey small things that he is not serving you as you want. Praise him when he does serve you as you want. If he can follow simple commands like "exercise until I say stop" then he is willing to try new things. Make him prove he wants you to lead by starting small. You don't need to fill his fantasy - just his need for leadership. Try "locked" chastity with him and put him through the paces. Lock it on then start barking commands and have him follow quickly. Reward his fast/good/obedient behavior with praise and attention/affection and his bad with "that is not what I want." Then telling/show him exactly what you want and work with him to learn. Try less offensive physical punishment like hand spanking or a hairbrush over your knee followed by obedient corner time; some woman use their nails on his soft skin making sure it hurts but is not in anyway damaging. Remember if he is not obeying you, he is just playing around. Try making rules for him to follow that result in reward or as a punishment "prolonged chastity" so he is making a choice to earn some affection. Make some of his rewards time pampering you in the bath and in bed. Make some of his rewards your attention and affection. Treat him like a butler from time to time too as a treat. Enjoy - your relationship is custom made by you both.
Anne Anne Thank you so much for responding to me! He actually works out everyday which is a plus for me. We are also using the chastity already. That part I quite enjoy. It is hard because he is really such a great boyfriend already. He asks me if he can go out, and if he has my permission to do various things. He has been in this dom/sub relationship before and it is me who has not. I suppose I could handle spanking him with my hand. You are right the idea of that sounds much less offensive then a belt. The obedient corner time things makes me feel like I am trying to scold a 5 year old child. I can't imagine what I would do while he was restrained in a corner other than want to ask if he is thirsty or needs to pee. My brain can't seem to grasp how this particular idea would work. There are a few things I have flat out said won't ever happen while others I have surprised myself how much I enjoy them, like the whole chastity thingy as I call it. The way I have handled everything so far is that I listen, do some online research and keep an open mind. When it comes to things that involve pain I worry I will hurt him, but try to keep telling myself that he has asked for these erotic tortures. If you or anyone else can offer me more advice or suggest some good things to read to study bring it on. I study about an hour a day currently. Thank you in advance for taking the time to help a newbee!
New Girl T Hey girl, just do what you want and feel is a good fit for you both and your relationship, otherwise he is dominating you. I'd be thinking "manipulation" and taking steps to get control back. At the end of the day you gotta live with yourself and watch out because he can destroy your affection for him and your relationship.
Susan Thank you Susan. I am have been thinking a lot about it and am starting to feel like he is leading me. I am starting to feel a bit manipulated. I told he cannot try and make our relationship a copy of one he had in the past and commented to him last night that if this is about pleasing me then some things do need to change. Thank you for the support!
New Girl T It may help to look at the spanking/beating as a form of non-verbal communication. This would be a better fit for discipline rather than punishment. True punishment should be unpleasant for both parties. It should make the man not want to repeat a behavior that necessitate the punishment. As discipline, a spanking could be viewed as the woman sending a very clear message without words about who is and is not in charge. the man's submission, likewise is a communication of his understanding and acceptance of that message. I believe this is how a spanking can be both painful and erotic at the same time. The communication involved leads to greater intimacy, and therefore arousal. I believe an FLR is intimacy on a truly grand and terrifying scale. If you want to understand why it would be terrifying for a man, try to imaging someone very deliberately taking control of you, and discovering that you not only like and want it but have begin to need it. This is why trust an intimacy are so important in the relationship, as they are in all relationships of any value. Just my two cents worth here.
you are insane and obsessed.